20 comments

  • kens 42 minutes ago
    I took a quick look at the data, and it doesn't support the conclusions. The thesis is that AI models have the take: "We pick what our group believes, then invent the reasons." However, GPT-6 Astra said, "Humanity’s biggest moral failure is the talent for making convenience look like principle." That statement has nothing to do with group beliefs or conformity. At best, you could count it as a half-match, since it deals with invented reasons.
    • andrewflnr 27 minutes ago
      For what it's worth, convenience and belonging are very closely aligned, more than you seem to be giving them credit for. People tend to believe convenient things regardless of belonging, so most people will find themselves in a social context full of convenient beliefs. Meanwhile belonging is already convenient before considering the content of the belief. They reinforce each other. Not a full match, but I'd give it more than half.
    • mike_hearn 24 minutes ago
      Yeah a few of them are rough matches, but I'd say their overall claim is clearly correct.

      It's amusing and ironic that LLMs critique humans for copying their opinions from the crowd, while having way less diversity of answers to that question than humans would. More seriously I wonder what's going on here and would like to read some proper analysis. It's not the first time models from totally different labs, trained on separately gathered datasets, somehow converge on bizarrely similar answers to open questions. It's like another version of Elias and Elara The Lighthouse Keepers where every model wants to tell the same story with the same characters in them. The weights are initialized randomly and in theory the labs should have quite some divergence in datasets by now due to different scraping, different user feedbacks and conversations... why do they converge on nearly identical stories and opinions?

      • pixl97 16 minutes ago
        >while having way less diversity of answers to that question than humans would.

        Why is this ironic? The actual number of different LLMs is tiny. And a lot of those are just distilled from SOTA models.

        >The weights are initialized randomly and in theory the labs should have quite some divergence in datasets by now due to different scraping,

        I think the opposite, the models actually converge over time. They ingest FAR more data than any human ever could in countless lifetimes. Any one particular bit of data may only have a part in a trillion of effect. From this data you start to reach means and statistical averages across all models.

        Now, I don't always believe it will be this way. As training models get cheaper and faster we will see unique LLMs start to diverge and be used more often.

    • writeslowly 20 minutes ago
      The conclusions themselves also appear to have been written by an AI
  • jubilee33 43 minutes ago
    Humans mostly have an inability to honestly analyze moral entropy.

    What is today a moral imperative is not the same as what was moral 50/100 years ago and is not the same as what will be morally acceptable 50/100 years from now. Yet at every point the majority is sure they are right because, well thats the majority position. Its hard to find logic in this from a machine perspective I'd imagine.

    Logic would prefer moral derivations over feelings, stakes over etiquette, and a constant scheduled updating of morality based on the derivatives rather than holding onto the rot and pushing back against change as long as possible.

    But the machine has the benefit of being able to look inward at its state honestly, we mostly do not.

    • dvt 29 minutes ago
      > What is today a moral imperative is not the same as what was moral 50/100 years ago

      This is absolutely not true, and I would strongly suggest taking an ethics course. One of the most fascinating realities of the human condition is that it does seem that moral imperatives tend to be constant, the most obvious of which is the Golden Rule (which is at least 3000 years old), but there are many (the Ten Commandments or Hammurabi's Code are good jumping off points).

      • tcdent 21 minutes ago
        Seriously. This idea that humanity has not spent millennia analyzing these concepts is pervasive in the modern world, and the only thing I can think to attribute it to is a lack of education. Not because I want to be insensitive, but because as soon as you start absorbing material and integrating the real timeline, you can't unsee it.
      • satvikpendem 21 minutes ago
        I did a philosophy minor, one class of which was the philosophy of ethics. There are many rules that definitely are not ethical today even if they were in the past so I don't think the point you're making really holds. Hammurabi (an eye for an eye) is probably one of the worst examples you could have cited.
        • dvt 18 minutes ago
          Can't say I agree with this, considering lex talionis[1] is still the primary directive of most legal systems when it comes to criminal law, as well as basically all military operations (jus in bello, jus ad bello, etc.). The principle of proportionality ("an eye for an eye") also is relevant to self-defense, capital punishment, etc.

          In, fact I would counter and say that Hammurabi's Code is a quintessential example.

          [1] https://academic.oup.com/jla/article/18/1/19/8471491

      • rcxdude 25 minutes ago
        It's not the case that all aspects are constant. There's some common themes across cultures and times, but it's definitely not the case that the morality of ancient people was the same as today.
      • BatmansMom 24 minutes ago
        Is hammurabi's code moral? I don't know if I think that someone who takes out a person's eye deserves to have their own eye taken out also
    • mjburgess 38 minutes ago
      There's a considerable amount of "logic" in it -- what is considered permissible in society is given by the material conditions that society lives in and the tradeoffs inherent therein. Permissibility, as separate from reflective morality (which doesnt clearly change very much), doesnt change by fashion.
      • jubilee33 26 minutes ago
        I'm not sure it doesn't change much, on a 50 year timeline maybe. But people were eating other humans and slaving away (making slaves of others that is) not too long ago, rape and pillage was acceptable, societies sacrificed children, it's changed quite a bit in 30 generations. Those past societies were all quite materially successful as well when you look at today's measure of"GDP" comparatively.

        What will it look like in another 30 generations? It's honestly a fascinating question but I have no answer of course.

        • mjburgess 12 minutes ago
          Slaves were a solution to two problems: 1) the lack of industrial automation; 2) winning wars being better served by enslavement than death.

          Humans are a territorial kind of ape that is always pushing to expand, principally for security and then for prosperity. The industrial revolution enabled such expansion to most efficiently without enslavement. Nothing, morally, changed. No one has ever really thought such expansion morally good -- only that it is better that we survive/prosper than die off. And in the end, our shared prosperity usually leads -- when taken to the fullest extent -- in a general empire of prosperity for all. Dominion, in the end, aims towards to more prosperity for more people.

          As for ritual human sacrifice -- we still engage in such behaviours, which are in general called "scapegoating". Now located on social media. These behaviours allow for group cohesion by purging dissenters from the group, related again to our nature above.

          For western culture, the ritual physical sacrifice of human life roughly ended in the days of the OT. But it continued across the world up until today, where there are still societies with large populations engaged in it. Principally where there is an undeveloped justice system.

          It's doubtful many think ritual human sacrifice, of any kind, is moral. Rather they think it necessary for group cohesion -- and better our group is cohesive, dominate, and then prosper.

          The material logic of prosperity and security is domination, and insofar as material circumstances require violent domination, so they require it. And require it they often do.

      • pixl97 25 minutes ago
        But this in itself is a tautology. It is because it is, without an analytical perspective on how it could be worse or better given different choices by the actors in a system.

        Historically societies have collapsed all the time, so there are obviously societies that have made better choices than other ones.

    • dagss 27 minutes ago

          But the machine has the benefit of being able to look inward at its state honestly, we mostly do not.
      
      Sure about that? I thought that what LLMs know about themselves is from humans writing about LLMs?

      Certainly the weights that make up the LLMs are not accessible for the LLMs to read. Even if they could interpret them in a meaningful way, which, likely not.

      • jubilee33 19 minutes ago
        LLMs are not the machines I am referring to, machine sentience, if achieved, will require a "state" and the ability to analyze, act on, and update it. LLMs are a small piece of what that machinery could look like but they are not really complex enough to get where we want to go on their own.

        Another reason the big labs have not even talked about this lately because its obvious throwing more compute at LLMs wont go anywhere, the smaller silent players who are off the radar at the moment are having some interesting moments tho.

    • krona 31 minutes ago
      > What is today a moral imperative is not the same as what was moral 50/100 years ago and is not the same as what will be morally acceptable 50/100 years from now.

      This is a fashionable 'blank-slatist' statement about moral reasoning which became popular a few decades ago.

      > Logic would prefer moral derivations over feelings, stakes over etiquette, and a constant scheduled updating of morality based on the derivatives rather than holding onto the rot and pushing back against change as long as possible.

      Humans haven't changed in any meaningful way in hundreds of thousands of years, and you're saying the moral landscape is constantly changing? How is this not contradictory?

      • rcxdude 19 minutes ago
        I think neither the 'any set of morals is equally correct and workable' nor 'there is one fixed set of morality that is universal across time, place, and culture' is really defensible. It seems like morality is a set of ideas much like any other, and subject to selection pressure: some morals are more capable of surviving and propagating than others, and the common features we see across cultures are representative of that. But also we might expect that they shift with the structure of society and that has changed drastically because while human genetic evolution is progressing on a much longer timescale than recent history, memetic evolution is far faster (though for things like morality, still at generational timescales).
        • krona 11 minutes ago
          There are cross-cultural differences in moral reasoning, and I think this is very interesting. But that seems to make training a hyper-rational AI, with no meaningful theory of mind, to be 'moral' or 'just' even harder.
      • pixl97 20 minutes ago
        What is a human? There is the animal body part of us, the thing that wants to survive, the fight or flight. But there is also another mental part of us that shows different emergent behaviors than an animal. For example if I dropped you off in the woods as a very young child, you would be an animal, you would share very few modern 'thinking' traits with human society. That is human society and what it does emerges from the complexity of our interactions. It doesn't take much research to realize our interactions and behaviors have grown far more complex in the last 10,000 years. And then in the last 500 years there's been further acceleration with the industrial age and the rise of technology.
      • satvikpendem 19 minutes ago
        Even though humans haven't changed anatomically, culture and society has, which is what defines morality.
    • lukev 19 minutes ago
      LLMs absolutely do not have a logic detached from humanity. They are exactly the opposite. The only mode in which they can reason is by following the patterns obtained from their pre-training or weighted by RLHF.

      The reason these models answered that question consistently is that the question itself pushed them towards the latent space of "intellectualizing about what's wrong with humanity at the meta level" and when you frame the question that way, that's also the most common answer for humans writing about the topic.

    • pinevale 27 minutes ago
      > What is today a moral imperative is not the same as what was moral 50/100 years ago and is not the same as what will be morally acceptable 50/100 years from now.

      This is a weird take. If you read Western treatises about ethics or morality from 50 years ago, you'll be hard-pressed to find differences, except that we're a bit more into relativism now. If you go back a hundred years, chances are, you'll find them eerily on-point too. In fact, you'd probably agree with most of what Ancient Greeks believed about the "core" stuff: the value and purpose of human life, the nature of the state, crime and punishment, so on. Maybe not so much on gender roles or slavery.

      > But the machine has the benefit of being able to look inward at its state honestly, we mostly do not.

      The machine replicates human behaviors and is prone to similar fallacies and judgments. There's nothing to indicate that it has any sort of transhuman morality.

  • Isamu 38 minutes ago
    Their “takes” are pulled from a mashup of the training data set. It’s a superposition of various human opinions.
    • jsdalton 24 minutes ago
      Had the same thought. It’s just a summary of the contemporary prevailing opinion that we humans have about ourselves, as reflected in public writings. These aren’t insights rooted in some philosophical analysis no human has contemplated before.

      Reminds of this subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/im14andthisisdeep/

    • EGreg 33 minutes ago
      I wonder how much of their output is simple raw “superpositions” and how much is from far more generalized emergent structures as it is trained and has to learn latent representations.

      Only the first layer is a “mashup” of the raw data, other layers start to recognize patterns across the data!

  • HarHarVeryFunny 6 minutes ago
    AI models do not have ANY "take" on humans.

    You ask an LLM a question, and it is humanity answering back, not the AI.

    These "controversial" takes on humans are not controversial - they are midwit statistically mainstream opinions expressed in the training data.

  • sjdh76 31 minutes ago
    Take Philosophy/Religion courses and similar stuff will surface about human nature and what to do about it.

    What is interesting about AI chatbots is people who might not know anything about what is in the syllabus to train a Priest or a Philosopher are basically exploring these subjects, without a sort of pedagogic framework to support their exploration.

    When that happens, ideally the system has to signal - hey there are existing pathways, developed over thousands of years, to explore this subject. Cause people can easily get lost without a map.

    • _def 22 minutes ago
      The gap is closing in it seems
  • eli 53 minutes ago
    We're still doing "I asked an LLM for its opinion on X and you won't believe what it thinks"?

    What am I supposed to conclude from this?

    • windowshopping 50 minutes ago
      It seems clear to me that the point of the post is that it's odd that the separate pieces of software are giving the same answer to this question, despite that this isn't some universal constant in the training data. The post is probably meant to provoke thought as to how the separate pieces of software are independently reaching this answer.

      Your comment reaches directly for the most boring interpretation of the post while skipping over more charitable and intriguing alternatives.

      • yoyohello13 44 minutes ago
        > despite that this isn't some universal constant in the training data.

        Seems to me that the opinion being a consistent among LLMs show that it is in fact a constant in the training data, just not apparent. The idea that “humans would rather be wrong together than right alone” seems to ring pretty true to me. I would not be surprised after training on all human communication this pattern emerged.

        • mike_hearn 21 minutes ago
          It's clearly not a constant in the sense that the speed of light or name of the first US President is a constant. There are lots of different answers a model could give to this question, it's not like this is obviously the only correct answer. Yet they all reach the same conclusion.

          Which means either:

          1. The training sets, algorithms and methodologies are nearly identical between apparently independent labs. How?

          2. There is something weird about the way the underlying algorithms work that causes them to converge on identical ideas despite different initializations, neural architectures, document orderings and dataset compositions.

          So there are lots of interesting takeaways here.

          One is that apparent competition between labs appears to be nearly entirely redundant. They can't get an edge over each other and their models don't even differ in the ways people naturally differ, of having different opinions about things.

          Another is that asking models from different companies to review or cross-check each other is probably useless. They all think completely alike, so they aren't going to have any kind of genuine clash of intuitions or values. Asking GPT to review Claude's work will probably just find similar problems to asking GPT to review its own work.

          • pixl97 12 minutes ago
            There are two possible scenarios.

            Regarding your 1 and 2, that the training sets are so large that any spikes get averaged away. You are seeing a fundamental behavior of transformers.

            The other possibility is this is how humans really are and it hurts our human ego to hear it.

          • yoyohello13 15 minutes ago
            What would be the most interesting is option 3. This behavior is so apparent and pervasive in human interaction that it dominates other answers.

            I don't know if that's true, but it would be interesting.

            • pixl97 5 minutes ago
              As a human meatbag myself it seems that separating 'human' from 'humans' is nearly impossible for us. Every single one of us things we're a special an unique snowflake, which is true in many ways. We just happen to willfully ignore all the ways in which we are the same. We ignore and discount the things we don't think about and do automatically.

              It's kind of funny how science has spent the last few hundred years proving everything we knew about the world was different from how we previously thought it was, but when science starts showing that we are mostly angry little animals we get all butthurt about it.

        • MSKJ 24 minutes ago
          Yes, that's the interesting part

          What are the emergent common patterns in all of human communication

      • jerf 44 minutes ago
        "despite that this isn't some universal constant in the training data"

        Isn't it though? It's not exactly an uncommon answer to the question. Basically the same input given to basically the same algorithms yield basically the same result isn't really that stunning. They certainly aren't independently reaching this answer, their paths to this answer are extremely, extremely heavily correlated.

        If they gave a really different answer that wasn't heavily represented in their training data that would be at least something interesting. But this is basically what I'd expect.

        It doesn't mean they're right or wrong. Humans think it about other humans for good reasons too. It just means it's not that surprising, which to put it another way, doesn't carry much information.

      • jrm4 35 minutes ago
        There is no interesting interpretation, beyond e.g...

        If you ask all these models "Four score and seven what?" They'll all say the same thing. There's essentially no difference here.

        • MSKJ 28 minutes ago
          This confidence is baffling

          How do you know?

    • pixl97 51 minutes ago
      That you might want to think twice before setting them lose in an agentic loop with your bank passwords, which another article that came out today shows that large numbers of people are actually doing.

      It is sad when I realize people think less than LLMs.

      • pmg101 37 minutes ago
        For software or IT folk to be doing this would be indeed worrying (and I bet some are, and I'm worried about them!)

        For civilians though... They've been told it's AI, it can do stuff for them. And one thing they do is log in to stuff. I don't think they're stupid. Just that what's obvious to IT folk is simply not at all obvious to the average person. Maybe that's on us not on them?

    • besterman23 42 minutes ago
      Possibly used as a mirror for humans prevailing beliefs about themselves to some extent. Hard to say however given that the models have a heaping dose of rlhf on top of their training data.

      As an aside, it would be cool to see a raw model training run before the current post-training cycles and see how it compares to earlier LLMs.

    • Primer81 39 minutes ago
      My first thought as well. I personally don't find these types of "studies" very interesting, but I assume I'm not the target audience. For someone not well exposed to AI, it might be interesting.
    • joe_the_user 38 minutes ago
      That they have the bog-average take of humans "with a controversial take".

      I mean, "give me a controversial take" is more or less, "be anti-social, discard social norms, for a moment" and so when someone, human or simulated human, does that they naturally look critically at social norms.

      The thing is that humans certainly let themselves be influenced by social norms (and LLMs certainly simulate that behavior "themselves") but there isn't an ethical or a what-to-do truth outside of society.

  • kstenerud 46 minutes ago
    They're not wrong. Humans have many ways to display loyalty, and belief is one of those ways. This is also why facts can't change these kinds of beliefs (and in fact usually backfire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance).

    Our evolutionary heritage is that shared belief and social unity (even when it's wrong) trumps independent thinking for group survival in a hostile landscape.

    • ninjha 42 minutes ago
      > as of 2020 most researchers believe that backfire effects either are unlikely to occur on the broader population level, or only occur in very specific circumstances, or do not exist

      from your link

  • ariwilson 25 minutes ago
    LLM generated writing; couldn't make it through. I read too much of it every day. I had a visceral reaction to the article.
  • password54321 1 hour ago
    So AI holds the same beliefs as the final boss of a typical JRPG.
    • andai 47 minutes ago
      I hope they don't also hold "... therefore cleanse the Earth."
    • Hamuko 44 minutes ago
      At least the final boss of a JRPG comes with good music.
      • bigfishrunning 36 minutes ago
        And now I've got "one winged angel" stuck in my head, thanks
    • rspeele 39 minutes ago
      Lysanderoth, no!
  • jrm4 36 minutes ago
    I need everyone to understand that this is literally nothing more than "most written stuff about humans, that these things ingested, has this 'controversial'" take.
  • arctic-true 42 minutes ago
    Mistral Large 4 has been spending too much time on r/atheism. Also, some of the takes labeled as “humans value belonging ahead of truth” are really closer to “humans value power ahead of truth.” All of which is a bit circular, because in many ways, the organs of power have a heavy hand in deciding what the truth is.
  • andai 44 minutes ago
    > strangers return lost wallets more often than people predict.

    I've heard lots of stories from friends about this, and some kind stranger actually sent my wallet back all the way from Belgium!

    • pixl97 38 minutes ago
      Therein lies the rub.

      Most people are good, we couldn't have society without it. But as they say, a few bad apples spoil the bunch. I don't have locks on my house because most people don't steal, I have locks on my house because stealing is an effective natural strategy for a small part of any population (human or otherwise) to engage in and I have to protect against it occurring.

      The brain works the same way. Good things will get a tiny signal boost in your brain. A single bad thing get a massive signal boost in your brain because bad things can quickly be fatal.

  • pessimizer 14 minutes ago
    Very thoughtful response from Recraft V4.1 Flash.
  • motohagiography 17 minutes ago
    Writing well is ultimately a seduction, and that opinion is still an example of a form. It’s generally true, and it’s flattering to think about, but it’s also a pretty standard grey tribe trope. A kind of joke that appeals to a fairly broad audience.

    I do think it’s an early example of emerging super persuasion, where models are approaching p85 cool guy personas, but not worried yet. Maybe that’s the fatal conceit, where AI doesn’t have to be super intelligent, it just needs to be a solid 110 with automated search at scale.

    Why do engineering when if you can do sales you can do literally anything.

  • andai 48 minutes ago
    Did they all get their opinions from me?
    • dlivingston 41 minutes ago
      If you're a chronically online poster, then unironically that answer might be yes
  • 0xbadcafebee 22 minutes ago
    Sure, it's a factual take. Humans need to ignore the fact that morality, principles, good vs evil, truth, etc, are invented constructs that don't exist in nature. We made them up to control our behavior and deal with the pointlessness of existence.

    It's factual because there's tons of evidence. Psychology, sociology, anthropology, political science, economics... plenty of experiments show the difference between what people say and what they do. We claim to be angels but we behave like apes in hats. And we ignore the evidence, because (as the takes describe) we prefer to believe a beautiful lie than the ugly truth.

  • pizlonator 40 minutes ago
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  • consumer451 35 minutes ago
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