I had a thing[1] over 10 years ago that could handle this kind of problem using SPARQL and knowledge graphs.
My question is how effective is it at handling ambiguity.
Can I send it something like a text message "lets catch up at coffee tomorrow 10:00" and a command like "save this" and have it choose a "add appointment" action from hundreds (or even tens) of possible tools?
Thanks to a Huggingface linked below, I tested it and im not impressed. prmopt: i need to contact my boss i will be late. Result: 20mins [{"name":"set_timer","arguments":{"time_human":"20 minutes"}}]. It didnt use the email tool and i tried 2-3 different ways of asking it.
Hmm.. this might make it feasible to build something like a command line program where you can optionally just specify the arguments in natural language. Although I know people will object to including an extra 14 MB and the computation for "parsing" and it could be pretty bad if everyone started doing that.
But it's really interesting to me that that may be possible now. You can include a fine-tuned model that understands how to use your program.
E.g. `> toolcli what can you do` runs `toolcli --help summary`, `toolcli add tom to teamfutz group` = `toolcli --gadd teamfutz tom`
thanks, yeah, the problem is just handling scale, we don't have the infra ready to go, but anyone can do that. Its easy for people to run on their laptops straight up. Will try the VPS route.
I know we all think of bad things when we hear "short form video" but short demos can do a LOT for any project, shows the user how its used, what it looks like, what it solves, etc all in anywhere from 15 seconds to a couple of minutes, doesn't need to be ultra fancy, screen recording is fine. :)
Since there is no GUI here, I feel like a simple plaintext chat transcript would be both 100x smaller and 100x easier to read. (Not to mention accessible.)
I was so confused by many comments in this post but thanks to you I realized that some people are apparently reading it as 26B and that's why their comments make no sense.
The "M" nomenclature has been around since at least BERT and T5/FLAN. It's valid to use it even if today's LLM devs are more familiar with billion-scale models.
Can you please make your substantive points without sharp elbows? We're trying for something different here, and would appreciate it if you'd post in the intended spirit.
I don't think they're attacking you, but suggesting you read more carefully. The information provided is correct and clear, but you need to let go of your own biases when consuming it.
I personally prefer the M to the B. I guess as an engineer, noticing the units comes pretty naturally.
I have been building for small (20B or less) models for quite a while. Highly focused/constrained agents, many of them running together in some kind of task orchestration mode to achieve what feels like one "agent".
I build (privacy first) desktop apps this way and I want to get into mobile apps with similar ideas but tiny models.
>Experiments at Cactus showed that MLPs can be completely dropped from transformer networks, as long as the model relies on external knowledge source.
Heh, what a coincidence, just today one of my students presented research results which also confirmed this. He removed MLP from Qwen and the model still could do transformation tasks on input but lost knowledge.
1. Distilled means taking the intelligence of a big model and compacting into a tiny model.
2. Google already does so with FunctionGemma, but Needle argues that better performance could be achieved with 10x smaller model using our technologies.
No FFN is blowing my mind. This is pretty much "Attention Is ACTUALLY All You Need". Reminds me of BERT Q&A which would return indices into the input context, but even that had a FFN. Really exciting work.
I guess this had always been bugging me. I get while you need activation/non-linearities, but do you really need the FFN in Transformers? People say that without it you can't do "knowledge/fact" lookups, but you still have the Value part of the attention, and if your question is "what is the capital of france" the LLM could presumably extract out "paris" from the value vector during attention computation instead of needing the FFN for that. Deleting the FFN is probably way worse in terms of scaling laws or storing information, but is it an actual architectural dead-end (in the way that deleting activation layer clearly would be since it'd collapse everythig to a linear function).
This is pretty much exactly what I want for Home Assistant. I yell out, "Computer! Lights!" and it toggles the lamp in the room on or off. (I mean I can do that now, I think, but probably with a much larger model.)
I haven't played with it yet, but does it ever return anything other than a tool call? What are the failure modes? What if it doesn't understand the request? Does it ever say it can't find a tool? Does it get confused if there are two similar (but different) tools? Can it chain tools together (e.g. one tool to look up and address and another to get directions to the address)?
I mean, I plan on downloading the model later tonight and finding out for myself, but since I'm stuck at work right now, I figured I'd ask anyway...
From all the models that do toolcalls the only thing I am confused is why did you pick the worst? Or maybe they are only bad in agentic work it fine for one shot toolcalls?
Hi, would love to know where you get that impression on 1 shot tool calling, was there concrete evaluation carried out? pretty new to this and was a bit lost when trying to compare models on different capabilities.
Got a bunch of errors trying to run it on CPU though. Very likely connected to me running this in a container (unpriv LXC), but figured for 26M CPU would suffice.
Come to think of it, this could be a nice model to have as the first pass in a more complex agent system where Needle hands of the results of a tool call to a larger model.
I don't really understand what this is for... there is a lot of ML-researcher talk on the GH page about the model architecture, but how should I use it?
Is it a replacement for Kimi 2.7, Claude Haiku, Gemini Flash 3.1 lite, a conversational LLM for the situations where it's mostly tool-calling like coding and conversational AI?
I'm having trouble understanding why someone would want that? Like, what are the product use-cases of such a thing? I understand why people want that for coding agents--although the jury is still very much out on whether those are terribly useful--but I cannot fathom what someone might want an agent to do on a cell phone? Is there some user-facing activity on a phone that's similar to coding with a tight, objectively measurable feedback loop (analogous to dev/compile/test)?
EDIT: more of you cretins have downvoted than have replied.. so.. show your cards.
Throwing a few things out - HN has changed over the years, but people make stuff to make stuff. There don't need to be product use cases. The tone of the comment goes against the spirit of HN - likely the reason for downvotes.
That aside- a very small model that takes text and outputs structured json according to a spec is nice. It let's you turn natural language into a user action. For example, command palettes could benefit from this.
If you can do a tiny bit of planning (todo) and chain actions, it seems reasonable that you could traverse a rich state space to achieve some goal on behalf of a user.
Games could use something like it for free form dialog while stool enforcing predefined narrative graphs etc.
I'm sure you could come up with more. It's a fuzzy function.
> people make stuff to make stuff. There don't need to be product use cases.
OK. Great! So it doesn't need to be a commercial product. But does it do something (anything?) interesting? I'm interested in your games example, I'd love to see it done in real life. IIUC, game AIs are actually much more constrained and predictable for play-ability reasons. If you let it go all free form a plurality of players have a "WTF??!?" experience which is super Not Good.
It doesn't have to do any thing interesting - it's completely fascinating all on it's own. If you understand anything about the math and science behind LLMs, you'll understand that this is an achievement worthy of sharing to a community like HN.
That being said, small models like these have plenty of use cases. They allow for extra "slack" to be introduced into a programmatic workflow in a compute constrained environment. Something like this could help enable the "ever present" phone assistant, without scraping all your personal data and sending it off to Google/OpenAI/etc. Imagine if keywords in a chat would then trigger searches on your local data to bring up relevant notes/emails/documents into a cache, and then this cache directly powers your autocomplete (or just a sidebar that pops up with the most relevant information). Having flexible function calling in that loop is key for fault tolerance and adaptability to new content and contexts.
> Something like this could help enable the "ever present" phone assistant, without scraping all your personal data and sending it off to Google/OpenAI/etc
OK so show me what that's for. Show me something useful you can do with that ability.
> Imagine if keywords in a chat would then trigger searches on your local data to bring up relevant notes/emails/documents into a cache, and then this cache directly powers your autocomplete (or just a sidebar that pops up with the most relevant information).
I'm really trying but.. idgi? I truly cannot imagine how this would improve my life in any way...
> Its cool. Enjoy it.
No. It sounds like a useless complication on my watch. I don't fucking care if it can tell me the phase of the moon. I can look up at the sky and see the moon and know what phase it is.
I mean.. Siri basically works? When I'm driving I say "Hey Siri, find me a gas station along my route", and it does. Or I say "Hey Siri, call Joe Bob mobile" and it does. Or I say "Hey Siri, play me a podcast". This is kind of a solved problem already? When I'm driving this is literally as complicated of a distraction as I want--I'm not going to be dictating emails or texts. When I'm not driving, the touchscreen keyboard (as shitty an interface as that is) is 100x better than voiced natural language commands.
It does just barely work now after they spent billions, and they may still fall back to cloud LLMs for a significant number of things. This is a way that everyone can get that on the actual Apple Watch or local phone for any application they build.
I get that, but I still can't imagine what it might be for. TBH I don't have a smart watch, because I can't think of anything I'd want one for--my mechanical watch keeps time to within a few seconds per month and the lume lasts all night. I don't know what making it "smarter" would do for me, it does an A+ job of being a watch. What are the things that "everyone" can build with this that actually matter? Like, what is the differentiator?
EDIT: To be clear, the monoculture of phone operating systems sucks. If this somehow enables more entrants into that space then I'm all for it. However, I don't see this in particular being the deciding factor... For example, the reason I don't run a 3rd party operating system on my phone isn't because it's lacking Siri or "OK Google" (if these things went away tomorrow I'd barely notice), it's because it would be a pain in the ass to make it be a phone.
Can this be a Siri-like core? Set me a timer, tell me what’s the weather, etc. Here is transcribed text and available list of tools for the model to call, and voice the output.
I find this stuff super fascinating and been thinking about it myself. Maybe one could bootstrap tiny models on a rather 'pure' procedural data set. Neglecting [0] of course...
Many people tease that they will, and start... but then kinda stop. But mostly just been building my own bespoke thing on my own bespoke platform, and kinda running out of steam because I need to make $$ instead.
I don't think the limit is just on tiny devices. It can also be used in apps on generic computers, because its so small anything can run it reasonably quick.
For example, I am thinking this could be helpful for say if you have a complicated build and test infrastructure, fine tune this model on that infrastructure and then people can say more generic things like build and run this library's test, rather than issuing the exact commands to do that or going to Claude, GHCP, etc
I source old, defective high-end radios with timeless designs from brands like Grundig or Braun, and replace the original hardware with a Raspberry Pi while using the original audio parts to build custom smart speakers. Reliable hotword detection and voice command recognition have been a persistent challenge over the years, but whisper and other small models have helped enormously. At the moment I have ollama running on my server with qwen 9b which works fine but a 26M that could be deployed on the pi itself would be amazing.
FYI, distilling Gemini is explicitly against the ToS:
"You may not use the Services to develop models that compete with the Services (e.g., Gemini API or Google AI Studio). You also may not attempt to reverse engineer, extract or replicate any component of the Services, including the underlying data or models (e.g., parameter weights)."
Yeah I think Google should shove that somewhere. They effectively distilled all the internet's knowledge into these models...without asking & without permission
The examples are things like "What is the weather in San Francisco", where you are only passed a tool like
I had a thing[1] over 10 years ago that could handle this kind of problem using SPARQL and knowledge graphs.My question is how effective is it at handling ambiguity.
Can I send it something like a text message "lets catch up at coffee tomorrow 10:00" and a command like "save this" and have it choose a "add appointment" action from hundreds (or even tens) of possible tools?
[1] https://github.com/nlothian/Acuitra/wiki/About
But it's really interesting to me that that may be possible now. You can include a fine-tuned model that understands how to use your program.
E.g. `> toolcli what can you do` runs `toolcli --help summary`, `toolcli add tom to teamfutz group` = `toolcli --gadd teamfutz tom`
Today is 2026 after all
You can check the very simple docker file there.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Why are you attacking me?
I personally prefer the M to the B. I guess as an engineer, noticing the units comes pretty naturally.
Advertising something that's 1/1000th that is significant and remarkable, hiding it in a single letter is burying the lede
I have been building for small (20B or less) models for quite a while. Highly focused/constrained agents, many of them running together in some kind of task orchestration mode to achieve what feels like one "agent".
I build (privacy first) desktop apps this way and I want to get into mobile apps with similar ideas but tiny models.
Heh, what a coincidence, just today one of my students presented research results which also confirmed this. He removed MLP from Qwen and the model still could do transformation tasks on input but lost knowledge.
What is a distilled model?
Why doesn't Google do this (to make their models smaller)?
Seems like you could make a competitor to Gemini?
1. Distilled means taking the intelligence of a big model and compacting into a tiny model.
2. Google already does so with FunctionGemma, but Needle argues that better performance could be achieved with 10x smaller model using our technologies.
Smaller model requires less space on disk, less video memory, and less compute (cheaper hardware).
Downside is that distilled model performs worse on the same benchmarks compared to original model.
> Repository Not Found for url: http s://huggingface.co/api/datasets/Cactus-Compute/needle-tokenizer/revision/main.
I haven't played with it yet, but does it ever return anything other than a tool call? What are the failure modes? What if it doesn't understand the request? Does it ever say it can't find a tool? Does it get confused if there are two similar (but different) tools? Can it chain tools together (e.g. one tool to look up and address and another to get directions to the address)?
I mean, I plan on downloading the model later tonight and finding out for myself, but since I'm stuck at work right now, I figured I'd ask anyway...
Got a bunch of errors trying to run it on CPU though. Very likely connected to me running this in a container (unpriv LXC), but figured for 26M CPU would suffice.
https://pastebin.com/PYZJKTNk
Come to think of it, this could be a nice model to have as the first pass in a more complex agent system where Needle hands of the results of a tool call to a larger model.
I will defiantly play around with this!
Are you Calvin or Hobbes?
Is it a replacement for Kimi 2.7, Claude Haiku, Gemini Flash 3.1 lite, a conversational LLM for the situations where it's mostly tool-calling like coding and conversational AI?
EDIT: more of you cretins have downvoted than have replied.. so.. show your cards.
That aside- a very small model that takes text and outputs structured json according to a spec is nice. It let's you turn natural language into a user action. For example, command palettes could benefit from this.
If you can do a tiny bit of planning (todo) and chain actions, it seems reasonable that you could traverse a rich state space to achieve some goal on behalf of a user.
Games could use something like it for free form dialog while stool enforcing predefined narrative graphs etc.
I'm sure you could come up with more. It's a fuzzy function.
OK. Great! So it doesn't need to be a commercial product. But does it do something (anything?) interesting? I'm interested in your games example, I'd love to see it done in real life. IIUC, game AIs are actually much more constrained and predictable for play-ability reasons. If you let it go all free form a plurality of players have a "WTF??!?" experience which is super Not Good.
That being said, small models like these have plenty of use cases. They allow for extra "slack" to be introduced into a programmatic workflow in a compute constrained environment. Something like this could help enable the "ever present" phone assistant, without scraping all your personal data and sending it off to Google/OpenAI/etc. Imagine if keywords in a chat would then trigger searches on your local data to bring up relevant notes/emails/documents into a cache, and then this cache directly powers your autocomplete (or just a sidebar that pops up with the most relevant information). Having flexible function calling in that loop is key for fault tolerance and adaptability to new content and contexts.
Its cool. Enjoy it.
OK so show me what that's for. Show me something useful you can do with that ability.
> Imagine if keywords in a chat would then trigger searches on your local data to bring up relevant notes/emails/documents into a cache, and then this cache directly powers your autocomplete (or just a sidebar that pops up with the most relevant information).
I'm really trying but.. idgi? I truly cannot imagine how this would improve my life in any way...
> Its cool. Enjoy it.
No. It sounds like a useless complication on my watch. I don't fucking care if it can tell me the phase of the moon. I can look up at the sky and see the moon and know what phase it is.
EDIT: To be clear, the monoculture of phone operating systems sucks. If this somehow enables more entrants into that space then I'm all for it. However, I don't see this in particular being the deciding factor... For example, the reason I don't run a 3rd party operating system on my phone isn't because it's lacking Siri or "OK Google" (if these things went away tomorrow I'd barely notice), it's because it would be a pain in the ass to make it be a phone.
[0]: http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html
For example, I am thinking this could be helpful for say if you have a complicated build and test infrastructure, fine tune this model on that infrastructure and then people can say more generic things like build and run this library's test, rather than issuing the exact commands to do that or going to Claude, GHCP, etc
"You may not use the Services to develop models that compete with the Services (e.g., Gemini API or Google AI Studio). You also may not attempt to reverse engineer, extract or replicate any component of the Services, including the underlying data or models (e.g., parameter weights)."
That said, we need more people distilling models IMO, just be ready for a C&D and a ban