Saw this earlier today, I think it’s very flawed and ideological, unfortunately other posts mentioning this got flagged.
First there’s the idea that “nurturing” is somehow what kids need and better for them automatically, that whatever a stereotypical man does with kids is bad for them, and we need to be rewired by pheromones or whatever to be more sensitive.
And as a corollary the idea that a high-T man somehow is a worse caregiver, and that it needs to be reigned in by some adaptation.
The whole thing is definitely framed for a certain world view, it’s definitely not the only interpretation.
Thank You. This is exactly why I read comments on HN before clicking on news. I am not looking for confirmation bias, I just trust people here more than the BBC.
It's worth noting though that the actions of the "stereotypical man" are strongly culturally informed, and not neccessarily indicative of whatever evolutionary pressures would've wired males brains whatever way they're wired for fatherhood. I don't think we have much direct evidence of ancient female and male parent roles (apart from being able to infer the obvious, like that females would've breastfed).
A lot of ancient cultures were collectivist if small. In some cases, matriarchal, in some cases, sex was "free" because the village owned the kids, and so establishing paternity was not as important because the burden was shared.
It’s probably unnatural for adult men to spend much time with tiny children in the first place. Here and there, sure, and boys close to adult age, definitely, but nothing like what happens today. This is why many men find it difficult, it is contrary to instinct.
Do hunter gatherers split care of tiny children? Whatever they do is what we’re wired for, mostly.
> It’s probably unnatural for adult men to spend much time with tiny children in the first place.
Sorry, what? The framing of this sentence alone has a very creepy vibe. I can't speak for all of us, but most us have strong protective instincts towards kids of all ages, especially the youngest ones.
> This is why many men find it difficult, it is contrary to instinct.
Contrary to whose instinct? If I had a kid, I would want to ensure his/her safety and success. Men in general yearn for it. And there's nothing that suggests men are incapable of it. Research indicates good outcomes. And I know fathers who are the sole care givers for young kids when life makes it inconvenient for the mother.
> Do hunter gatherers split care of tiny children? Whatever they do is what we’re wired for, mostly.
Hunter gatherer culture is at least ten thousand years old - plenty of time for social behavior to evolve. Modern humans, including men are very heavily invested in kids because humans can't have a lot of kids. Ensuring each one's safety becomes important.
Heck! Humans, including males are very nurturing and protective towards even children of other men and other species. Plenty of evidence that your assertion doesn't hold at all.
But it’s ok for child men to spend time with children? That seems dangerous. Who would teach them about scissors? Furthermore, when does a child stop being a tiny child? And at that point can any adult male of the species interact with them or is there some kind of age to height progression where it becomes safe?
In very much more serious, but perhaps less kind thoughts, do you not get halfway through writing things like that without considering how fundamentally broken that thinking is? My heart seriously goes out to you, unless it’s not ok given I am pretty tall and you might be 12 or something so it may still be a few years before we can talk, but I may be dead by then and it feels like you could use a pal, lil buddy.
Woah. As an adult man with five kids, two of them infants, the most natural thing in the world is for them to be present in almost every second of my life.
It’s not difficult at all. Minutes after birth, naked baby was on my naked chest, and bonding started. This never felt contrary to my instinct.
I can't speak for the person you're responding to, but my default reaction to people who say things like this is that they probably don't have kids, and if they do, I wonder about the well-being of their family life. I don't mean that to be insulting at all. It seems completely incompatible with being a family- or community-involved person.
And what's society without kids? Whether you're a parent or not, we need kids to do well. It makes no sense at all not to learn to be good with kids, to care about them, to invest in them, etc. They're firmly a core component of human society, certainly not going anywhere.
And I can't imagine not spending a lot of time with my kids. It's one of the things I think about most. I like to do a lot of things, but they're one of the few things I can always say yes to. I want to take care of them, teach them, learn from them, listen to them, see them grow, whatever. It just feels good to be in their lives. There's nothing unnatural about it.
> I can't speak for the person you're responding to, but my default reaction to people who say things like this is that they probably don't have kids,...
I don't have kids and it still sounds nonsensical. As a man, my instinct isn't to run away from my child if I had one. If life keeps men and their children apart, that's a different matter altogether. But I have seen other men yearn to be with their little kids. My father did the same when I was young. Some of them are their kids' sole caregiver for the majority of the time because life keeps the mother away from the child. And in all instances, I see strong paternal affection and instincts at play. I'm baffled by an assertion otherwise.
The bond I have with my children is profound and primal. The idea that it’s “unnatural” for me to spend much time with them is so ridiculous as to be instantly dismissed.
GP clearly doesn’t have kids or have close male friends who are involved with their kids.
N = 1. now compare the number of single mothers (≈ children abandoned by their fathers) vs the number of single fathers (≈ children abandoned by their mothers).
for every helicopter dad there are ten guys who don't care about their offspring.
> And the men that had spent longer looking after babies showed the largest drops in testosterone. Those that shared a bed with their infants also had lower levels.
Dad here. Maybe…it’s the lack of sleep? Involved fathers tend to have less sleep.
As a father of 3 daughters now approaching 50 with my oldest now 24 … I will say that I believe some of this is true. Perhaps it is just the life altering effect of raising children or maybe is biological as well. You can definitely pickup on whether another male is a father or not.
Some of that is because the other male is whining about something that's really bothering him, but, as a parent, things tend not to affect you as much unless it's directly related to your kid.
Not to the direct thesis of the article, but I want to share one absolute 180 I had after having kids.
Before kiddos I took the apriori belief that it would kinda suck. The belief was unassailable because I thought, evolutionarily, if it was fun to have kids it wouldn't be fun to make them - otherwise we'd endure unfun "making" because we know the having would be fun.
I know now how stupid that was on many levels. Just specifically that belief has changed for me: its fun to make kids because having them is self reinforcing and wonderful and intrinsically motivational.
Mom brain is also a thing. Large scale, consistent, structural changes in the postpartum brain that is uncorrelated with PPD.
https://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhab463
I find it very odd that the rest of the comments are sort of... not agreeing with the findings in the article.
I became a father recently (:D) and it's been an emotional rollercoaster for me. I had been frantically Googling my "symptoms" and asking around what's wrong with me, because it seems I've been quite sensitive since the birth of my baby.
I think the article is spot on — the more time you spend with your baby and care for them, the more oxytocin you get and the more your testosterone drops (I cried when my baby first spoke — cooed, really — to me, for example, and that's just one instance).
Edit: I want to take this opportunity to say — fuck companies that don't give paternity leave. This is fucking hard to do alone, so be nice to your employees and offer paternity benefits. I'm in India, where paternity leave isn't required, so I was told to fuck off when I asked for time off.
I agree. Very few people disputing the important findings: that testosterone drops, on average, and that this is probably related to caregiving. Otherwise, there's no real reason for it to change.
One of the weird changes I've seen in my life is testosterone emerging as a sort of status symbol. When I was young, that just wouldn't have landed: if you said "I have high testosterone," people would have known what you meant, but it wasn't a thing people said and it would've seemed a little comical, with its "science!" and test tube overtones. Back then the idea was, if you want to be manly, then build muscle or find a manly occupation (or both). Why measure a chemical when you can use your eyes?
Now though, people get defensive about it. It matters. "Low t" would've seemed like a semi-clinical nerd's take on manhood, once; now it's regarded as a real insult. That was a step backwards imo.
Maybe its being older already but I don’t feel super changed having a baby like people told me I would. I don’t do work or hobbies or socializing any differently. Everything else in my life didnt suddenly seem unimportant.
The one big difference is up to now I though crying babies were annoying and subconsiously somehow blamed parents. Now I see how foolish that was as babies are born knowing nothing and are just adorable little people trying their best to get their needs met and handle emotions.
You’re experiencing that because fatherhood is raising your estradiol aka estrogen.
I’m on testosterone and one of the side effects is your estrogen raises too, and boy I had no idea how much that hormone affects us. It gave me a new appreciation of what women sometimes feel when I think they’re overreacting.
the problem with most research about humans is that the variance is usually massive. The study could be true on average and that could still leave millions of men who the study doesn't end up applying to.
Same here. I can still hear them breathing quite clearly in the next room, even with the bedroom doors partially closed. My hearing for noises further away got more sensitive, but those nearby less so. I put this down to an ancestral ability to listen for sabre-tooth tigers trying to sneak up in the grass.
51yr old father of two (18yr M 16yr F)... I know I'm a biased pool to draw from but my lived experience was noticing how my brain changed when my wife started showing she was pregnant.
I swear I actually noticed it. At times i felt the changes.. it felt similar to the buzz you get when playing a fast paced shootem up game. it wasn't quite a buzz though.
It makes sense as a layman - less testosterone means less fighting, aggressive behavior, chasing other mates, etc. Ensures more success for your offspring.
It's the equivalent of castrating yourself! Never!
The only problems is that if the boys are falling for it you cannot save them so you need new boys to hangout with but it's not the same because you don't go back to where you were both kids
> that men have all the necessary biological wiring to be "every bit as protective and nurturing as the most committed mother
This seems like an overstatement - man can't give birth to babies (which involves transfer of the mothers biome to the baby) or feed babies (which typically involves lactation).
Neither of the quibbles you drew are what people usually class as protective or nurturing behavior? At least in the English-speaking world that’s later in a child’s life than birth.
I’d also note that the concern about feeding babies has been obsolete since the invention of formula.
No, this is catastrophically wrong. Nursing is absolutely a major site of nurturing. Breastfeeding is only partially about delivering calories. Donald Winnicott was right.
I edited the post to add a little more detail for people that (it seems, based on bizarre moderation of widely accepted realities) thought "men can't give birth to or feed babies" wasn't specific enough.
The modern female loves the “dad” archetype because it’s non-threatening across many domains. See: all modern entertainment media (which is produced by females and the feminine-minded). Expect it to increase in representation and popularity (which can already be observed by the sharp-witted).
My identity: trans woman (to ameliorate the stung feelings of identitarians, relativists, and/or feminists reading this).
First there’s the idea that “nurturing” is somehow what kids need and better for them automatically, that whatever a stereotypical man does with kids is bad for them, and we need to be rewired by pheromones or whatever to be more sensitive. And as a corollary the idea that a high-T man somehow is a worse caregiver, and that it needs to be reigned in by some adaptation. The whole thing is definitely framed for a certain world view, it’s definitely not the only interpretation.
It's worth noting though that the actions of the "stereotypical man" are strongly culturally informed, and not neccessarily indicative of whatever evolutionary pressures would've wired males brains whatever way they're wired for fatherhood. I don't think we have much direct evidence of ancient female and male parent roles (apart from being able to infer the obvious, like that females would've breastfed).
Do hunter gatherers split care of tiny children? Whatever they do is what we’re wired for, mostly.
Sorry, what? The framing of this sentence alone has a very creepy vibe. I can't speak for all of us, but most us have strong protective instincts towards kids of all ages, especially the youngest ones.
> This is why many men find it difficult, it is contrary to instinct.
Contrary to whose instinct? If I had a kid, I would want to ensure his/her safety and success. Men in general yearn for it. And there's nothing that suggests men are incapable of it. Research indicates good outcomes. And I know fathers who are the sole care givers for young kids when life makes it inconvenient for the mother.
> Do hunter gatherers split care of tiny children? Whatever they do is what we’re wired for, mostly.
Hunter gatherer culture is at least ten thousand years old - plenty of time for social behavior to evolve. Modern humans, including men are very heavily invested in kids because humans can't have a lot of kids. Ensuring each one's safety becomes important.
Heck! Humans, including males are very nurturing and protective towards even children of other men and other species. Plenty of evidence that your assertion doesn't hold at all.
In very much more serious, but perhaps less kind thoughts, do you not get halfway through writing things like that without considering how fundamentally broken that thinking is? My heart seriously goes out to you, unless it’s not ok given I am pretty tall and you might be 12 or something so it may still be a few years before we can talk, but I may be dead by then and it feels like you could use a pal, lil buddy.
It’s not difficult at all. Minutes after birth, naked baby was on my naked chest, and bonding started. This never felt contrary to my instinct.
And what's society without kids? Whether you're a parent or not, we need kids to do well. It makes no sense at all not to learn to be good with kids, to care about them, to invest in them, etc. They're firmly a core component of human society, certainly not going anywhere.
And I can't imagine not spending a lot of time with my kids. It's one of the things I think about most. I like to do a lot of things, but they're one of the few things I can always say yes to. I want to take care of them, teach them, learn from them, listen to them, see them grow, whatever. It just feels good to be in their lives. There's nothing unnatural about it.
I don't have kids and it still sounds nonsensical. As a man, my instinct isn't to run away from my child if I had one. If life keeps men and their children apart, that's a different matter altogether. But I have seen other men yearn to be with their little kids. My father did the same when I was young. Some of them are their kids' sole caregiver for the majority of the time because life keeps the mother away from the child. And in all instances, I see strong paternal affection and instincts at play. I'm baffled by an assertion otherwise.
The bond I have with my children is profound and primal. The idea that it’s “unnatural” for me to spend much time with them is so ridiculous as to be instantly dismissed.
GP clearly doesn’t have kids or have close male friends who are involved with their kids.
for every helicopter dad there are ten guys who don't care about their offspring.
Dad here. Maybe…it’s the lack of sleep? Involved fathers tend to have less sleep.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3809034/
Before kiddos I took the apriori belief that it would kinda suck. The belief was unassailable because I thought, evolutionarily, if it was fun to have kids it wouldn't be fun to make them - otherwise we'd endure unfun "making" because we know the having would be fun.
I know now how stupid that was on many levels. Just specifically that belief has changed for me: its fun to make kids because having them is self reinforcing and wonderful and intrinsically motivational.
Perhaps I'm a data point.
I became a father recently (:D) and it's been an emotional rollercoaster for me. I had been frantically Googling my "symptoms" and asking around what's wrong with me, because it seems I've been quite sensitive since the birth of my baby.
One way to explain this is the Gordon Ramsay meme (https://imgflip.com/memetemplate/211147137/Oh-dear-dear-gorg..., LHS = my reaction to my baby, RHS = my reaction to other kids before my baby was born).
I think the article is spot on — the more time you spend with your baby and care for them, the more oxytocin you get and the more your testosterone drops (I cried when my baby first spoke — cooed, really — to me, for example, and that's just one instance).
Edit: I want to take this opportunity to say — fuck companies that don't give paternity leave. This is fucking hard to do alone, so be nice to your employees and offer paternity benefits. I'm in India, where paternity leave isn't required, so I was told to fuck off when I asked for time off.
One of the weird changes I've seen in my life is testosterone emerging as a sort of status symbol. When I was young, that just wouldn't have landed: if you said "I have high testosterone," people would have known what you meant, but it wasn't a thing people said and it would've seemed a little comical, with its "science!" and test tube overtones. Back then the idea was, if you want to be manly, then build muscle or find a manly occupation (or both). Why measure a chemical when you can use your eyes?
Now though, people get defensive about it. It matters. "Low t" would've seemed like a semi-clinical nerd's take on manhood, once; now it's regarded as a real insult. That was a step backwards imo.
The one big difference is up to now I though crying babies were annoying and subconsiously somehow blamed parents. Now I see how foolish that was as babies are born knowing nothing and are just adorable little people trying their best to get their needs met and handle emotions.
I’m on testosterone and one of the side effects is your estrogen raises too, and boy I had no idea how much that hormone affects us. It gave me a new appreciation of what women sometimes feel when I think they’re overreacting.
Probably you cannot average humans.
I swear I actually noticed it. At times i felt the changes.. it felt similar to the buzz you get when playing a fast paced shootem up game. it wasn't quite a buzz though.
do partners who purchase a puppy also have lower T in the following months if they are primary caregivers?
I wouldn’t trust these sourced studies - smells exactly like replication crisis findings.
Malcom Gladwell meticulously sourced the researchers when he was writing his books. He got everything right. It was all the researchers who lied.
The only problems is that if the boys are falling for it you cannot save them so you need new boys to hangout with but it's not the same because you don't go back to where you were both kids
"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents."
"Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Moreover, there exist fathers who are non-committal (e.g. cheat) and thus, disproving this.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Blaffer_Hrdy#Mothers_and...
This seems like an overstatement - man can't give birth to babies (which involves transfer of the mothers biome to the baby) or feed babies (which typically involves lactation).
I’d also note that the concern about feeding babies has been obsolete since the invention of formula.
Testosterone also drops when you dont get enough sleep, which is a universal lifestyle change for parents.
My identity: trans woman (to ameliorate the stung feelings of identitarians, relativists, and/or feminists reading this).