Python 3.15’s interpreter for Windows x86-64 should hopefully be 15% faster

(fidget-spinner.github.io)

255 points | by lumpa 8 hours ago

20 comments

  • mananaysiempre 6 hours ago
    The money shot (wish this were included in the blog post):

      #   if defined(_MSC_VER) && !defined(__clang__)
      #      define Py_MUSTTAIL [[msvc::musttail]]
      #      define Py_PRESERVE_NONE_CC __preserve_none
      #   else
      #       define Py_MUSTTAIL __attribute__((musttail))
      #       define Py_PRESERVE_NONE_CC __attribute__((preserve_none))
      #   endif
    
    https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/143068/files#diff-45b...

    Apparently(?) this also needs to be attached to the function declarator and does not work as a function specifier: `static void *__preserve_none slowpath();` and not `__preserve_none static void *slowpath();` (unlike GCC attribute syntax, which tends to be fairly gung-ho about this sort of thing, sometimes with confusing results).

    Yay to getting undocumented MSVC features disclosed if Microsoft thinks you’re important enough :/

    • kenjin4096 4 hours ago
      So it seems I was wrong, [[msvc::musttail]] is documented! I will update the blog post to reflect that.

      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46385526

    • publicdebates 6 hours ago
      Important enough, or benefits them directly? I have no good guesses how improving Python's performance would benefit them, but I would guess that's the real reason.
      • pjmlp 4 hours ago
        Microsoft was the one hiring Guido out of retirement, and alongside Facebook finally kicking off the CPython JIT efforts.

        Python is one of the Microsoft blessed languages on their devblogs.

        • __turbobrew__ 11 minutes ago
          How to stay employed for life: create a programming language which is pretty good, but with some fatal flaws (GIL, typing, slow) and you are set for life.
        • throw1ahs 1 hour ago
          The project was first suggested by Mark Shannon. Van Rossum inserted himself into the project. Faster CPython people have been fired by Microsoft last year.

          Generally not that much has happened in 5 years, sometimes 10-15% improvements are posted that are later offset by bloat.

          I think the project started in 3.10, so 3.9 is the last version to compare to. The improvements aren't that great, I don't think any other language would get so much positive feedback for so little.

          • pjmlp 1 hour ago
            I know what happened last year, my point was the prior history that lead to that effort.

            https://thenewstack.io/guido-van-rossums-ambitious-plans-for...

            Agree with the sentiment, Python is the only dynamic language where it seems a graveyard from efforts.

            And nope it isn't the dynamism per se, Smalltalk, Self, Common Lisp are just as dynamic, with lots of possibilities to reboot the world and mess up JIT efforts, as any change impacts the whole image.

            Naturally those don't have internals exposed to C where anything goes, and the culture C libraries are seen as the language libraries.

            • boulos 39 minutes ago
              Ehh, PHP fits that bill and is clearly optimizable. All sorts of things worked well for PHP, including the original HipHop, HHVM, my own work, and the mainline PHP runtime.

              Python has some semantics and behaviors that are particularly hostile to optimization, but as the Faster Python and related efforts have suggested, the main challenge is full compatibility including extensions plus the historical desire for a simple implementation within CPython.

              There are limits to retrofitting truly high performance to any of these languages. You want enough static, optional, or gradual typing to make it fast enough in the common case. That's why you also saw the V8 folks give up and make Dart, the Facebook ones made Hack, etc. It's telling that none of those gained truly broad adoption though. Performance isn't all that matters, especially once you have an established codebase and ecosystem.

              • gsnedders 22 minutes ago
                > Performance isn't all that matters, especially once you have an established codebase and ecosystem.

                And this is no small part of why Java and JS have frequently been pushing VM performance forward — there’s enough code people very much care about continuing to work on performance. (Though the two care about different things mostly: Java cares much more about long-term performance, and JS cares much more about short-term performance.)

                It doesn’t hurt they’re both languages which are relatively static compared with e.g. Python, either.

      • andix 5 hours ago
        I guess there are some Python workloads on Azure, Microsoft provides a lot of data analysis and LLM tools as a service (not paid by CPU minutes). Saving CPU cycles there directly translates to financial savings.
      • HPsquared 6 hours ago
        I wonder if this is related to Python in Excel. You'll have lots of people running numerical stuff written in Python, running on Microsoft servers.
      • acdha 4 hours ago
        Think about how much effort they have put into things like Pylance and general python support in VAC. Clearly they think they have enough users that this matters to that a first class experience is worth having.
      • mkoubaa 6 hours ago
        A lot of commercial engineering and scientific software runs on windows.
    • monster_truck 5 hours ago
      [flagged]
  • jtrn 5 hours ago
    Im a bit out of the loop with this, but hope its not like that time with python 3.14, when it was claimed a geometric mean speedup of about 9-15% over the standard interpreter when built with Clang 19. It turned out the results were inflated due to a bug in LLVM 19 that prevented proper "tail duplication" optimization in the baseline interpreter's dispatch loop. Actual gains was aprox 4%.

    Edit: Read through it and have come to the conclusion that the post is 100% OK and properly framed: He explicitly says his approach is to "sharing early and making a fool of myself," prioritizing transparency and rapid iteration over ironclad verification upfront.

    One could make an argument that he should have cross-compiler checks, independent audits, or delayed announcements until results are bulletproof across all platforms. But given that he is 100% transparent with his thinking and how he works, it's all good in the hood.

    • kenjin4096 4 hours ago
      Thanks :), that was indeed my intention. I think the previous 3.14 mistake was actually a good one on hindsight, because if I didn't publicize our work early, I wouldn't have caught the attention of Nelson. Nelson also probably wouldn't have spent one month digging into the Clang 19 bug. This also meant the bug wouldn't have been caught in the betas, and might've been out with the actual release, which would have been way worse. So this was all a happy accident on hindsight that I'm grateful for as it means overall CPython still benefited!

      Also this time, I'm pretty confident because there are two perf improvements here: the dispatch logic, and the inlining. MSVC can actually convert switch-case interpreters to threaded code automatically if some conditions are met [1]. However, it does not seem to do that for the current CPython interpreter. In this case, I suspect the CPython interpreter loop is just too complicated to meet those conditions. The key point also that we would be relying on MSVC again to do its magic, but this tail calling approach gives more control to the writers of the C code. The inlining is pretty much impossible to convince MSVC to do except with `__forceinline` or changing things to use macros [2]. However, we don't just mark every function as forceinline in CPython as it might negatively affect other compilers.

      [1]: https://github.com/faster-cpython/ideas/issues/183 [2]: https://github.com/python/cpython/issues/121263

      • jtrn 4 hours ago
        I wish all self-promoting scientists and sensationalizing journalists had a fraction of the honesty and dedication to actual truth and proper communication of truths as you do. You seem to feel that it’s more important to be transparent about these kinds of technical details than other people are about their claims in clinical medical research. Thank you so much for all you do and the way you communicate about it.

        Also, I’m not that familiar with the whole process, but I just wanted to say that I think you were too hard on yourself during the last performance drama. So thank you again and remember not to hold yourself to an impossible standard no one else does.

        • halflings 2 hours ago
          +1, reading through the post, the PR updating the documentation... thanks for being transparent, but also don't be so hard on yourself!

          That was a very niche error, that you promptly corrected, no need to be so apologetic about it! And thanks for all the hard work making Python faster!

        • kenjin4096 3 hours ago
          Thank you very much for the kind words, that means a lot to me!
    • haberman 2 hours ago
      I’ll repeat what I said at that time: one of the benefits of the new design is that it’s less vulnerable to the whims of the optimizer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43322451

      If getting the optimal code is relying on getting a pile of heuristics to go in your favor, you’re more vulnerable to the possibility that someday the heuristics will go the other way. Tail duplication is what we want in case, but it’s possible that a future version of the compiler could decide that it’s not desired because of the increased code size.

      With the new design, the Python interpreter can express the desired shape of the machine code more directly, leaving it less vulnerable to the whims of the optimizer.

      • kenjin4096 2 hours ago
        Yeah, I believe that statement and it seems to hold true for MSVC as well. Thanks for your work inspiring all of this btw!
  • g947o 7 hours ago
    > This has caused many issues for compilers in the past, too many to list in fact. I have a EuroPython 2025 talk about this.

    Looks like it refers to this:

    https://youtu.be/pUj32SF94Zw

    (wish it's a link in the article)

  • redox99 6 hours ago
    This seems like very low hanging fruit. How is the core loop not already hyper optimized?

    I'd have expected it to be hand rolled assembly for the major ISAs, with a C backup for less common ones.

    How much energy has been wasted worldwide because of a relatively unoptimized interpreter?

    • Calavar 4 hours ago
      Quite to the contrary, I'd say this update is evidence of the inner loop being hyperoptimized!

      MSVC's support for musttail is hot off the press:

      > The [[msvc::musttail]] attribute, introduced in MSVC Build Tools version 14.50, is an experimental x64-only Microsoft-specific attribute that enforces tail-call optimization. [1]

      MSVC Build Tools version 14.50 was released last month, and it only took a few weeks for the CPython crew to turn that around into a performance improvement.

      [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/cpp/attributes?view=ms...

    • kccqzy 6 hours ago
      Python’s goal is never really to be fast. If that were its goal, it would’ve had a JIT long ago instead of toying with optimizing the interpreter. Guido prioritized code simplicity over speed. A lot of speed improvements including the JIT (PEP 744 – JIT Compilation) came about after he stepped down.
      • davidkhess 4 hours ago
        Should probably mention that Guido ended up on the team working on a pretty credible JIT effort. Though Microsoft subsequently threw a wrench in it with layoffs. Not sure the status now.
      • IshKebab 3 hours ago
        If performance was a goal... hell if it was even a consideration then the language would be very different.
    • pjc50 5 hours ago
      This is (a) wildly over expectations for open source and (b) a massive pain to maintain, and (c) not even the biggest timewaster of python, which is the packaging "system".
      • loeg 4 hours ago
        > not even the biggest timewaster of python, which is the packaging "system".

        For frequent, short-running scripts: start-up time! Every import has to scan a billion different directories for where the module might live, even for standard modules included with the interpreter.

    • WD-42 5 hours ago
      Probably because anyone concerned with performance wasn’t running workloads on Windows to begin with.
      • pjmlp 4 hours ago
        Games and Proton.

        Apparently people that care about performance do run Windows.

        • WD-42 3 hours ago
          None of those games, or a very small amount of them, are written in python. None of the ones that need to be performant for sure.
          • pjmlp 1 hour ago
            Indeed, but the question was about performance in general.
        • nilamo 3 hours ago
          Games are made for windows because that's where the device drivers have historically been. Any other viewpoint is ignoring reality.
          • pjmlp 1 hour ago
            Sure, keep believing that while loading Proton.
        • whatevaa 2 hours ago
          But not python.
          • pjmlp 1 hour ago
            Sure, but that wasn't the question.
      • loeg 4 hours ago
        They weren't using Python, anyway.
    • mkoubaa 5 hours ago
      Software has gotten so slow we've forgotten how fast computers are
    • LtWorf 5 hours ago
      If you want fast just use pypy and forget about cpython.
  • DrewADesign 2 hours ago
    After years of admonition discouraging me, I’m using Python for a Windows GUI app over my usual C#/MAUI. I’m much more familiar with Python and the whole VS ecosystem is just so heavy for lightweight tasks. I started with tkinter but found it super clunky for interactions I needed heavily, like on field change, but learning QT seemed like more of a lift than I was interested in. (Maybe a skill issue on both fronts?) Grabbed wxglade and drag-and-dropped an interface with wxpython that only has one external dependency installable with pip, is way more convenient than writing xaml by hand, and ergonomically feels pretty pythonic compared to QT. Glad to see more work going into the windows runtime because I’ll probably be leaning on it more.
    • NetMageSCW 15 minutes ago
      Depending on how important the GUI is to you, I would look into LINQPad for stuff that is scripting but too heavy.
    • halfcat 1 hour ago
      Wait until you see ImGui bindings for Python [1]. It’s immediate mode instead of retained mode like Tkinter/Qt/Wx. It might not be what you’d want if you’re shipping a thick client to customers, but for internal tooling it’s awesome.

          imgui.text(f"Counter = {counter}")
          if imgui.button("increment counter"):
              counter += 1
      
          _, name = imgui.input_text("Your name?", name)
          imgui.text(f"Hello {name}!")
      
      
      [1] https://github.com/pthom/imgui_bundle
  • acemarke 5 hours ago
    I've never seen this kind of benchmark graph before, and it looks really neat! How was this generated? What tool was used for the benchmarks?

    (I actually spent most of Sep/Oct working on optimizing the Immer JS immutable update library, and used a benchmarking tool called `mitata`, so I was doing a lot of this same kind of work: https://github.com/immerjs/immer/pull/1183 . Would love to add some new tools to my repertoire here!)

  • gozzoo 4 hours ago
    I have quetion - slightly off topic, but related. I was wandering why is pyhton interpreter so much slower than V8 javascript interpreter when both javascript and python are dynamic interpreted languages.
    • everforward 3 hours ago
      I know of a couple reasons offhand.

      JavaScript is JIT’ed where CPython is not. Pypy has JIT and is faster, but I think is incompatible with C extensions.

      I think Pythons threading model also adds complexity to optimizing where JavaScripts single thread is easier to optimize.

      I would also say there’s generally less impetus to optimize CPython. At least until WASM, JavaScript was sort of stuck with the performance the interpreter had. Python had more off-ramps. You could use pypy for more pure Python stuff, or offload computationally heavy stuff to a C extension.

      I think there are some language differences that make JavaScript easier to optimize, but I’m not super qualified to speak on that.

      • pansa2 2 hours ago
        > I would also say there’s generally less impetus to optimize CPython

        Nonetheless, Microsoft employed a whole "Faster CPython" team for 4 years - they targeted a 5x speedup but could only achieve ~1.5x. Why couldn't they make a significantly faster Python implementation, especially given that PyPy exists and proves it's possible?

        • everforward 13 minutes ago
          Pypy has much slower C interop than CPython, which I believe is part of the tradeoff. Eg data analysis pipelines are probably still faster in numpy on CPython than pypy.

          Not an expert here, but my understanding is that Python is dynamic to the point that optimizing is hard. Like allowing one namespace to modify another; last I used it, the Stackdriver logging adapter for Python would overwrite the stdlib logging library. You import stackdriver, and it changes logging to send logs to stackdriver.

          All package level names (functions and variables) are effectively global, mutable variables.

          I suspect a dramatically faster Python would involve disabling some of the more unhinged mutability. Eg package functions and variables cannot be mutated, only wrapped into a new variable.

    • bheadmaster 3 hours ago
      I can think of two possible reasons:

      First is the Google's manpower. Google somehow succeeds in writing fast software. Most Google products I use are fast in contrast to the rest of the ecosystem. It's possible that Google simply did a better job.

      The second is CPython legacy. There are faster implementations of Python that completely implement the API (PyPy comes to mind), but there's a huge ecosystem of C extensions written with CPython bindings, which make it virtually impossible to break compatibility. It is possible that this legacy prevents many possible optimizations. On the other hand, V8 only needs to keep compatibility on code-level, which allows them to practically switch out the whole inside in incremental search for a faster version.

      I might be wrong, so take what I said with a grain of salt.

      • canucker2016 1 hour ago
        Don't forget that there was a Google attempt at making a faster Python - Unladen Swallow. It got lots of PR but never merged with mainline CPython (wikipedia says a dev branch was released).

        see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unladen_Swallow

        • pansa2 5 minutes ago
          Unladen Swallow got a lot of hype but was only a very small project. IIRC the only people working on it were two interns.

          V8 was a much higher priority - Google hired many of the world’s best VM engineers to develop it.

    • _ZeD_ 2 hours ago
      keep in mind that, apart from the money throw at js runtime interpreters by google and others, there is also the fact that python - as a language - is way more "dynamic" than javascript.

      Even "simple" stuff like field access in python may refer to multiple dynamically-mapped method resolution.

      Also, the ffi-bindings of python, while offering a way to extend it with libraries written in c/c++/fortran/... , limit how freely the internals can be changed (see the bug-by-bug compatibility work done for example by pypy, just to name an example, with some constraint that limit some optimizations)

      • pansa2 2 hours ago
        > python - as a language - is way more "dynamic" than javascript

        Very true, but IMO the existence of PyPy proves that this doesn't necessarily prevent a fast implementation. I think the reason for CPython's poor performance must be your other point:

        > the ffi-bindings of python [...] limit how freely the internals can be changed

    • dragonwriter 2 hours ago
      > why is pyhton interpreter so much slower than V8 javascript interpreter when both javascript and python are dynamic interpreted languages.

      Because JS’s centrality to the web and V8’s speed’s centrality to Google’s push to avoid other platform owners controlling the web via platform-default browsers meant virtually unlimited resources were spent in optimizing V8 at a time when the JS language itself was basically static; Python has never had the same level of investment and has always spent some of its smaller resources on advancing the language rather than optimizing the implementation.

      Also, because the JS legacy that needed to be supported through that is pure JS, whereas with CPython there is also a considerable ecosystem of code that deeply integrates with Python from the outside that must still be supported, and the interface used by that code limits the optimizations that can be applied. Faster Python interpreters exist that don’t support that external ecosystem, but they are less used because that ecosystem is a big part of Python’s value proposition.

    • IshKebab 45 minutes ago
      Even though Javascript is quite dynamic, Python is much worse. Basically everything involves a runtime look-up. It's pretty much the language you'd design if you were trying to make it as slow as possible.
    • screenothethird 3 hours ago
      [dead]
  • vednig 1 hour ago
    Python's recent developments have been monumental, new versions now easily best the PyPy performance charts on M4 MacBook Air, idk if this has something to do with optimizations by Apple but coming from Linux I was surprised
  • eab- 2 hours ago
    My understanding is that also this tail call based interpretation is also kinder to the branch predictor. I wonder if this explains some of the slow downs - they trigger specific cases that cause lots of branch mispredictions.
  • horizion2025 2 hours ago
    I don't understand this focus on micro performance details... considering that all of this is about an interpretation approach which is always going to be slow relatively speaking. The big speed up would be to JIT it all, then you dont need to care about structuring of switch loops etc
  • Hendrikto 7 hours ago
    TLDR: The tail-calling interpreter is slightly faster than computed goto.

    > I used to believe the the tailcalling interpreters get their speedup from better register use. While I still believe that now, I suspect that is not the main reason for speedups in CPython.

    > My main guess now is that tail calling resets compiler heuristics to sane levels, so that compilers can do their jobs.

    > Let me show an example, at the time of writing, CPython 3.15’s interpreter loop is around 12k lines of C code. That’s 12k lines in a single function for the switch-case and computed goto interpreter.

    > […] In short, this overly large function breaks a lot of compiler heuristics.

    > One of the most beneficial optimisations is inlining. In the past, we’ve found that compilers sometimes straight up refuse to inline even the simplest of functions in that 12k loc eval loop.

    • kccqzy 5 hours ago
      I think in the protobuf example the musttail did in fact benefit from better register use. All the functions are called with the same arguments, so there is no need to shuffle the registers. The same six register-passed arguments are reused from one function to the next.
    • cma 5 hours ago
      Does MSVC support computed goto?
  • Quitschquat 3 hours ago
    Tbh, 15% faster than slow AF is still slow AF
    • dingdingdang 2 hours ago
      Yup, but 5 to 15% faster year on year is real progress and that's ultimately what the big user base of Python are counting on at this point.. and they seem to be getting it! Full disclaimer: I'm not a heavy Python user exactly due to the performance and build/distribution situation - it's just sad from a user-end perspective (I'm not addressing centralised web deployment here but rather decentralised distribution which I ultimately find more "real" and rewarding).
  • forrestthewoods 4 hours ago
    Is there a Clang based build for Windows? I’ve been slowly moving my Windows builds from MSVC to Clang. Which still uses the Microsoft STL implementation.

    So far I think using clang instead of MSVC compiler is a strict win? Not a huge difference mind you. But a win nonetheless.

  • develatio 7 hours ago
    if the author of this blog reads this: can we can an RSS, please?
    • kenjin4096 6 hours ago
      Got it. I'll try to set one up this weekend.
  • bgwalter 5 hours ago
    MSVC mostly generates slower code than gcc/clang, so maybe this trick reduces the gap.
    • metaltyphoon 5 hours ago
      Is this backed by real evidence?
      • bluecalm 5 hours ago
        My experience is 10%-15% slower than GCC. That was 10 years ago though.
  • maximgeorge 1 hour ago
    [dead]
  • Rakshath_1 5 hours ago
    [dead]
  • mishrapravin441 7 hours ago
    Really nice results on MSVC. The idea that tail calls effectively reset compiler heuristics and unblock inlining is pretty convincing. One thing that worries me though is the reliance on undocumented MSVC behavior — if this becomes widely shipped, CPython could end up depending on optimizer guarantees that aren’t actually stable. Curious how you’re thinking about long-term maintainability and the impact on debugging/profiling.
    • kenjin4096 6 hours ago
      Thanks for reading! For now, we maintain all 3 of the interpreters in CPython. We don't plan to remove the other interpreters anytime soon, probably never. If MSVC breaks the tail calling interpreter, we'll just go back to building and distributing the switch-case interpreter. Windows binaries will be slower again, but such is life :(.

      Also the interpreter loop's dispatch is autogenerated and can be selected via configure flags. So there's almost no additional maintenance overhead. The main burden is the MSVC-specific changes we needed to get this working (amounting to a few hundred lines of code).

      > Impact on debugging/profiling

      I don't think there should be any, at least for Windows. Though I can't say for certain.

      • mishrapravin441 6 hours ago
        That makes sense, thanks for the detailed clarification. Having the switch-case interpreter as a fallback and keeping the dispatch autogenerated definitely reduces the long-term risk.
    • pxeger1 5 hours ago
      Profile of llm generated comments
      • mishrapravin441 3 hours ago
        ust to clarify, I’m writing these comments myself. I use grammar llm plugin though to clean up phrasing, but the substance is mine.
  • machinationu 7 hours ago
    The Python interpreter core loop sounds like the perfect problem for AlphaEvolve. Or it's open source equivalent OpenEvolve if DeepMind doesn't want to speed up Python for the competition.